Conversations with unbelief (Part 1)

(The following three part post is my recent folowup to my neighbor, briefly mentioned in the post "Ding Dong Yo".)

Hey neighbor,

I appreciated you talking with us on Saturday and I (Dan) really wanted to talk more, but we both had places to be and things to do then. So I wanted to offer up a conversation at your leisure if you wanted. I can always be reached at the contact info provided.

Honestly I greatly enjoy discussions like the one we were having. I spend a great deal of time studying (and then talking about) things like evidence, logic, presuppositions, and truth. I know you had objections to things like the Divinity of the Bible and how Logic leads you to believe in random chance existence; both of these are genuine questions and hurdles for people in the world today. (Both of which are addressed very slightly on the next page.) After all, the world is not God friendly with both the sciences and media pressing for anti-God worldviews; leading us all to believe their is no reason or evidence that God is real, even though evidence abounds.

Still, I wonder why people assume that group B is right and not group A without giving equal time to seek the truth in things. Learning the background and biases that may drive the groups. Truth in all things is what we really want, isn't it? And truth can not contradict itself and still be true so ultimately only one worldview can be right. If you're at all like me you want to know the “true truth” as well.

Anyhow, like I was saying, I love delving into this and often do so if you ever want to talk about things or pose seemingly impossible questions please do. (^_^) If you don't want to get into a discussion I of course understand and in that case I do hope you give AnswersinGenesis.org a chance to answer your objections. You seem like a cool guy even though we were coming from different worldviews and that's not the most common thing in my experience, so I wanted to open the door here.

Yours in Christ,
-Dan (of the door-to-door variety)

Conversations with unbelief (Part 2)

1. Divinity of the Bible:

As for the divinity of scriptures I understand it is hard to believe, but before passing judgment on the topic we have to have the right starting points. As I mentioned briefly before we cannot start off by assuming that a work claiming to be divine is fallible simply because all non-divine works are fallible. This is an assumption and by definition, not logical.

So how then can we pass judgment fairly on it? Only by subjecting it to tests and trials, it is logical. Essentially by "putting it to the test" and thereby finding that it is either a mess OR that it produces evidence for divinity "beyond reasonable doubt". Beyond reasonable doubt implies that it would then be illogical to disbelieve that it were divine. This would be a fair “proof” then, no?

So does it contradict? Does it have relevance? Has it really been shaped by generations of men? These are some very core questions that can be used test the Bible itself and I encourage you to give it a chance to let it prove itself. Bring questions to it and then read it fully to see how it compiles into a divine work. This is a necessary step and logical as well as testing a chapter here and a verse there is not adequate to pass judgment on a work that works as a whole after all.

If you don't want to read the word and would instead like to pose these questions to me to "prove" beyond reasonable doubt (providing evidence and rational reasoning) please do not hold back. I've been around for some time so this is a challenge I not only offer to you but have taken on myself, to date, without fail. In any case it is illogical to pass judgment on it without testing it, relying on assumption or personal desire.

Conversations with unbelief (Part 3)

2. Logic and Chance Existence:

Ok, I will pose some questions to you on the topic of chance existence and logic leading to a belief in chance existence. You may throw this in the trash, but I'd ask you to be read them once at least, perhaps even ponder them a bit.
- Is it logical to believe in a creation without a creator? If so how Or based on what? If science, then do I really know what they say is as solid as they claim or am I just trusting in people who have their own worldviews that drive their opinions?
- Can I say a car has to be created but a giraffe with its irreducible complexity can happen by random processes? How do I justify that call? You may need to study giraffes to get this question. I have a DVD that delves into it a bit that you can have if you want.
- Can I say that it is logical to believe in right and wrong for myself and apply it to others but say that their is no divine source to say what is right or wrong? Doesn't that mean I am wrong to say others (who differ) are wrong, which is a logical contradiction.
- Is it logical to think that information (DNA information or languages for example, which is always orderly, structured, and with a purpose) can happen randomly? What basis do I have to believe that?
- What is chance really? (Even the flip of a coin is not random at all; existing by and being dictated by systems already in place such as gravity, inertia, friction, weight by elemental mass, and imparted trajectory, etc.) Where then is the chance in it really? If what I believe is chance is actually the world running on structured systems how can I still believe that chance allows for the creation of something from nothing logically, as noted above?

All these lead to two basic questions; what am I basing my belief in chance creation on really, given all the above? Does it make logical sense? These are a few questions and may seem like an attack (certainly not intended on my part), but I just wanted to pose something to you that you may appreciate when given thought. Again please don't be a stranger with comments and critiques of this.

Ding Dong Yo

Ok, well I just got back from hurdle 1-of-3. I don't know if I ever explained this on here before or not but before I'm 30 I have set up 3 personal achievements that go against my very being, but ultimatly serve for the better. These are (in order)... 1.Door-to-Door witness/evangelism 2.One on One encounter of the random variety to share the gospel (the whole thing not just that Jesus died on a cross) and 3.Street Preaching to passerbyes attempting to draw a crowd to hear the gospel.

Today a friend of mine came with me to go door-to-door in the neighborhood, meeting and greeting and talking to strangers. While I was honestly looking for a chance to use the gospel we were concentrating on just getting conversations going and mentioning things like worshiping God and the Contemporary service coming soon. In part getting over the hurdle of actually going out to do it and in part putting on a welcoming face for those in the neighborhood. It helped a bit in gathering intel for the area and what people wanted in a worship wervice. Then we closed by talking about the creation museum and asking if they had prayer needs.

We did meet a lot of people, but a lot of doors never opened for us of course. This I believe is due to the number of JWs and Mormons that come around. A shame as those that did answer were very friendly and (once they understood why we were coming around) were very friendly even when they had different worldviews. Most of them were interested in more traditionsl services and so we did not talk about much Contemporary stuff except for one or two people. Many were now inactive members of churches not in the area and one man even offered to help with the construction of our Contemporary service.

I only got two opportunities to share the gospel and didn't do it in either case. The first time was when an atheist opend the door and we talked about his past in the church and his problems with it. Since he had church background he had most likely heard it before, but that is no reason to not say it. (I am writing him a letter of contact info and comments to encourage his interest in our discussion so maybe that will open up the door for the gospel again.) The second person was a young Muslim woman who would have been ideal, except I was in too much shock to know what to do at the time. It was quite unexpected to meet a Muslim or Jewish person in this area...or so I thought. So I basically tryed to talk about how she worshiped simply to save the conversation from becoming a staring match. Maybe I'll re-group and go back to these two houses next week anyway with a better plan, maybe.

Over all it was a great experience and I don't think it will be difficult to go back out tomorrow or next Saturday or whenever. However, I do need to take full advantage of opportunities with the gospel and also find away to get doors to open easier. Maybe a sign that says "We are not JW or Mormon" that I can wave in front of the peep-hole? We'll see...

Curiously Inspired

I was in the bathroom at work, thinking about apologetic articles I had recently finished reading and a thought found its way into my head. "Create either a website that gathers Christian apologists or a site that accepts hard questions from people who need help in their apologist efforts."

Wow, both of these ideas are really exciting to me. Granted I have had exciting ideas come before and eventually I get overwhelmed or distracted by other things, but I would love to see this through. Over the years I have met many strong apologists and many more people who were in need of a way to answer their critics so I doubt it would be hard to get started. I can already set up a web page and system to handle it all. I can even imagine, with the help of those mentioned a moment ago, how to get the word out.

The only two stumbling blocks are 1. Me and my endurance with projects like these and 2. managing the discrepancies that can exist between certain Christian apologists. The second one should not be an issue if a system is in place to govern that lifts the Word and the Gospel above all else. The first one however, is always a thorn in my side. As soon as it becomes a chore to me I will begin to procrastinate it which would be unacceptable. This can be fixed though by the governing rules and by creating a small heirarchy where two trusted others can make decisions in my absense.

Man this is would be a dream for me. The places and ways it could be useful are almost endless in my mind. I'll pray about it and give thought to its workings, but don't be surprised if I have more to say later.

"I" of the Golem

This is a writing experiment for funnzies! Make a strangely creative title and then write about it. Let the title brew before you write so that the creative juices are really flowing and you may find that you have several levels to write on which really opens up a lot of options in the experiment.

What then is a Golem? Is it just a character in the Lord of the Rings? No, no it is defined as an artificial construct in the form of a human which is endowed with life, a stupid or clumsy person, or an automaton.

So, why "I of the Golem"? Because I really see us as the Golem sometimes; no less a construct. In our human shape we are little more than building blocks of "stuff" that has the breathe of life poured into it. Sounds like a Golem to me. Also, mankind as a whole is often clumsy about it's choices in life. Often basing decisions in false truths, lack of evidence, or pure personal desire. Where would a Golem be without direction from its owner? Chances are good that without guidance or instruction the construct would be very clumsy, pushed around by every wind of doctrine and theory. Effected to the point of living irrationally. On top of this we are tools of the tool maker, servants of the master, and creations of the creator. That which creates does so for a reason, it does so with purpose. Even those artists today that create "for no reason at all" are creating with intent and hope for their creations, not to mention that creating "for no reason at all" is in itself a reason. Therefore all creations have reason and purpose even if such a purpose is not known or is less than a good reason.

The "I" in the title is my way of seeing the golem speak of its own accord. A symbol of its search for truth and purpose which can only be found in its creators arms. That point in our lives where we begin to crack open the doors to the larger questions, seeking purpose and direction. Questions like "Who am I?" and "Am I doing what I was made to do?" This is where the title comes from. So what reason were you made for?

Sailing Spheres

Changing the topic for the moment I have enjoyed the sport of Golf on several occasions of late and while I am horrible at it, often injuring myself, I always look forward to going back out. At this point I am considering getting a lesson or two so I can cut back on my rather powerful slice. In the interim though I have been trying little adjustments and reading golf tips to find out what I am missing, so far to no avail.

Aside from the joys of seeing a well designed course with carpet like grass on a gorgeous afternoon their are lots of things I think about when I golf. For instance I think about how hard it is for us to design, dig up, re-plant, and maintain such a beautifully landscaped course while it only took God one day to throw together all the earth. I think about how hard it is to strike a dimpled ball with a club face and send it flying straight and true down the course. It seems so simple on paper, but the systems and creations He put around us to work within are so hard for us to master, in fact it is impossible for us to master. I think about the wind when I hit. How it will affect my shot (as if I can produce anything but a slice these days) and then I realize that the wind I am straining to understand on the confinement of this little course is but a small fraction of the movement of the winds over the earth. Makes me smile and chuckle as I rack my brain and strain my muscles to hit through a stiff breeze. This is just a passing thought on those things that we often overlook. How we are so often focused on self glorification or gratification that we miss the greater picture and then wonder why we don't have a better appreciation for God works.

Really, we are the focus of creation but we are no less a creation ourselves. It is humbling and appropriate to remember these things and our true place in the world.

Random Thoughts (#926)

Today, a question was posed to me that I felt led to write about. "why do you think god is putting us through this...?" POW! What a question. Thankfully it was rhetorical, the questioner knew I would not have the whole answer and I admit I do not know if God was making a specific statement to him in the sense he was asking. The question itself has two levels though; the lighter of the two is "why is this happen to ME"? The true heart of that question (at the foundation) is "why does God allow bad things in the WORLD?"

The first part of any answer to these should mention that God allows sin in the world as surely as He allows free will and that it is not Him that brings pain and suffering in all its forms. It is OUR CHOICES or the CHOICES OF THOSE AROUND US that effect us. How do I know? For starters theirs the whole story of Eden where their was no sin and all was good. Then sin came (by our choice), everything fell apart, and we are basically still at that point now aside from available salvation. But still the questions come... Should I take it personally as if I am being punished? Can I find the reason and make amends? Does God just have a mean streak? Having the answer to where sin came from and why doesn't always stop us from finding questions and trying to blame God for it. In that light lets take a closer look at this. Would God ever use suffering as a test? Yes. (See Job) Would God ever use suffering to guide us? Yes. (See Jonah) Would God ever use suffering to build us up? Yes. (See Paul’s letters) Would God ever use suffering to bring justice? Yes (See Sodom and Gomorra) Would God ever use suffering without reason? Nope. Does every act of suffering we have part in stem from Gods direct influence? Nope. (See the Fall of man)

So we are getting a picture of God and suffering that is scriptural which does not portray Him as delighting in evil or the suffering of His creation. Now would be a good time to mention Gods love since He is not evil or neutral but GOOD! Two of His most basic natures after all are Love and Justice, both of which are completely relevant to the topic. Signified so often by His actions of mercy, justice, grace, and forgiveness in scripture. All the sin that passes from generation to generation born of the first sin from the first Adam is wiped away by the sacrifice of the second Adam, one generation after the next. God came down from safety n the throne and bore all worldly evils, ultimately sacrificing Himself for those that hate Him, for what? Not for fun. For us and as proof that He is not evil but LOVING!

So after all this I have barely scratched the surface of the topic in this post and even with all that I have to say on top of this I only know part of the design of things that our Glorious Maker has done. But it should be clear both from the Word and from reasoning that God is good regardless of our suffering. It is all the more important that we hold fast to His goodness to make it through these tough times whether it is a personal agenda of His or general sin in the world weighing down on us. Otherwise we are "biting the hand that feeds us" and trying to make it on our own when help sits in waiting. Keep these things in mind when you are suffering, remember that God is good and that He loves us all. It will only be harder to do it alone and it would only be misplaced to blame God for being anything but good to us. See past the suffering to the greater things.

The Avg. Lineup

Lately I’ve been having more conversations online again and more are on the horizon. This is something I’ve been doing a long time and I just took a little time to write about a few of the types of people I find in these conversations.

1. "Mr. Know it all": Will hear your point and completely disregard it on the basis of believing that he knows better. He will often believe this because he has read one or two articles on the subject or has seen it argued elsewhere as apposed to having a sound argument himself. On occasion he will actually have a wealth of knowledge on the subject, but remember having a wealth of knowledge does not justify a position on its own. He often does not fight you to seek or share the truth, but instead fights you because you challenge his worldview. If you are right he is wrong and must act accordingly.

2. The Scarecrow: This guy, whether on purpose or not, will consistently create straw man arguments, red-herrings, and commit equivocation without knowing it, causing conversations to become muddled and loose focus. This often leads him and others to think he has one the argument when in fact he hasn't.

3. MR.ROFL: This guy is not laughing with you, but at you. It is usually a plain disregard though it can often be coupled with the first two mentioned, carrying an actual response. Stopping the conversation to question his motives and biases behind his comments will usually stop him in his tracks as he will not want to come cross as a jerk to those watching.

4. Mr. Maybe: This is the guy I like to see. He did not come to the conversation to submit, but can recognize when he is wrong and is honestly looking for the truth. It may take a few rounds to get through to him but being patient is not hard as he is a welcome change of pace from the first 3 types. When you recognize him and that he is starting to open up prepare the gospel message for him appropriately. Not just JC, but the whole message because he may need "reason" and he may have reservations or questions that need addressed.

5. Mr. Bizzaro: This guy should be your best friend, but poor doctrine or scripture understanding has him making comments that inhibit or even harm both Mr. Maybe as well as the flow of your conversation. He means well but can easily sway the flow of the conversation, distracting others from or confusing the point you are making. It is a problem that must be addressed on top of the topic you are first addressing in the discussion. This can be taxing but has to be done for our well meaning brother.

6. The Silent Witness: These are those who never speak up but on occasion to say that they agree or that you have done a good job explaining something. You can never be sure of where they stand or why they don’t hop in the discussion but it is nice once in a while to see their comments. It reminds you that you’re not actually fighting alone; that others are watching and tracking the battle of the day. Maybe they are learning, maybe they are laughing, maybe they are grumbling…who knows, but when they do talk they are getting behind you.

A tough question to answer...

I know it might seem like I drone on (and on) about the Creation Museum and in fact I do, but I have since been asked on several occasions "what is it"? Because of this I have been trying to refine how to explain it briefly but also accurately. Not easy considering all that exists to explain. So, here is what I am trying to say to the question, "What is it?"

The Creation Museum is first a museum of history which is very different from secular museums because its reference point is the Bible as opposed to the various atheistic/naturalistic worldviews. This is a key point to make, worldviews and presupposed starting points of understanding the world. The museum makes this distinction early on by presenting real life examples and instances where the secular worlds answers differ from Christian answers on any given topic.

Once this point is made, that starting points (presuppositions) will always influence the way you view the world, the museum goes on to explain how the bible can and does explain the world around us so very well. Given any topic (Geology, Geography, Astronomy, Genetic, Anthropology, Language, Archaeology, Documentary Records, Fossils, etc) the bible does not contradict observable and testable science (observable and testable are the emphasis). This is important because most people see the bible as religion, not history. It is assumed to hold wisdom and tradition, not accurate history. And yet when put to the test it never fails to show its divine and infallible nature.

After this key point is made the actual museum starts. The account of creation itself followed by the fall of man. Then the great flood and the confusion of Babel. Then came the introduction of religions and gods and miss-applied worship systems. Then the arrival of Christ, His death on the cross, and the completion which is to come. All this is detailed with facts and figures which are verifiable or testable in the science realm so that people understand that this is not just a "religious story" but is at the very least a viable account of history to be considered alongside evolution and the big bang which permeate nearly every museum around the world.

At different points in the museum examples are given as to why the world is as it is. The societal and moral issues we face not planting ourselves in the Word of God and Biblical history. Matters like the Scopes trial and the removal of God from both school and science have cause a great deal of trouble for the world that had once chosen to reject Gods grace and wisdom. Between these and the earlier examples it becomes clearer and clearer that in this battle of worldviews it makes less sense to believe in atheistic so-called science (as found in schools and the media) over the Bible when not only does the Bible never change but it is never wrong when tested. This is very crucial to choosing worldviews (something every person has) because atheistic/naturalistic sciences are always found to be wrong and in need of revision. Science which is also driven by fallible men and women who have worldviews of their own which they use to interpret their findings and press their agendas.

As you can see it is not something to say in brief or the point is missed or at least I have not seen a way to do so yet. Of course, the museum is pressing not to force their worldview, but to instead force the visitor to re-evaluate why they believe what they do and whether it is right to believe that, given that a choice exists. In truth the harder you look the more sense it makes. Why then do people have the opinion that the Bible is just a story? Dare I say it is because of naturalistic and atheistic sciences that press evolution and big bang worldviews on the media. One man having a grudge against religion says it is not true and the man next to him hears that. He has seen TV and heard the other mans words and assumes that they are both in line and so are accurate. His worldview is comprised of what then, assumptions and biases. Even if he claims that science denies the Bibles account he cannot give verifiable reason for these claims. When put to the test verifiable and observable science has no qualms with God, God made all things and they should to declare His craftsmanship!

Point being people have worldviews that are based on nothing all the while God is calling out with a tearful eye to bring them home, but until they understand their biases and mistaken assumptions (sometimes even after that point) which drive them how will they see the truth? Why not a state of the art museum...? Why not indeed…

Creation Fest '07

Hey Everybody,
As you can see things have either been too busy or too uneventful the past month to warrant posting here. (It was the former not the later.) I'll just pick up where we are at and (if later find the time) I'll go back and post on what has happened. Hope all things are going well out their, but chances are good they aren't.

Last Saturday two friends of mine and I went out to Mount Union PA to join in on the last day of Creation Fest '07. It was a first time thing for all of us and I was not sure what I was expecting. It took a while to find because the directions weren’t the best and when we got their the place was naturally packed. Still, it had a welcoming feeling and it was a beautiful day. Once we got in the parking lot and started walking towards the music we realized just how many tents, trailers, and campers were packed into the area. It was staggering once I noticed that around every bend was another dense grouping of them, one after another on the way to the stages. When we got there (to the stage) it was empty so we kept walking to find the other, on which was Cool Hand Luke. We found a nice spot on the hill and sat to listen. We must have been there for 6 hours, listening to CHL finish his set and then came Edison Glass, John Reuben, Sanctus Real, DUB, and Flyleaf. Suddenly I was all sunburned and it was nearly 7:30pm. I don't generally like live music, but it was such a nice day, the bands did a great job, and the atmosphere there was comforting. After that we went back to the main stage for the evening service speaker and then Kutless and Newsboys, all of which rocked. We left before the Newsboys were finished and so we beat the traffic, getting home by 1:00am.

Highlights, besides the music, I would have to say consisted of seeing all the types of Christians that came. And man if you ever want to get a feel for what a Christian looks like you should check this place out next year. Their were older couples, goths, punks, geeks, jocks, rocker-types, nature people, and "normal people" all over. Really it is a testament against the stereo-typing that people do. Another highlight that lasted a while in the noon-day sun was a rainbow-sun-halo. The picture below will give you an idea of what I mean, but it was a rainbow that did not touch the horizon. Instead it encircled the sun itself. It occurs naturally (not to say God didn't influence it that day) but in any case it was beautiful and rare. It hovered over us on the hill as the music played. I have never seen the sun do this but I have seen the moon do it several times in the night sky. So, their are many other things to talk about concerning this, but I want to change the topic now slightly.

Their were two events (maybe three) that I took a bit hard. It wasn't the speakers that spoke between the songs or the songs themselves. It was my reaction to events as they would unfold. Moments were my heart says "Go!" and my body stands still, it's regret over inaction. The first one was early in the day we saw that they were doing baptisms in the lake next to the main stage. I wanted to go but did not. This is the least of my regrets as I will do it next year, having remembered a towel and extra clothes. The other two regrets came simultaneously. Late in the service the speaker spoke of being prayed for, not just by people or Christians, but by the righteous (it's in scripture). All prayers are useful but the prayers of the righteous can be used to heal essentially. The speaker then opened a "prayer tent" and asked for youth workers to come and help out as people came to be prayed for. He made a good point to say "if you aren't right with the Lord don't come to pray right now" and so I stood there. I don't think I am in the best place still, not wholly useless or damaged, on the mend in fact, but I can say that while I wanted to go help with the tent it would have been wrong of me and that upset me. That I was unable to do so meant that I should go get prayer instead, but again, as loud as the heart screamed the heavier my feet became. And so I stood, missing it all...later that night, while watching the crowd pulsate and scream and the Newsboys perform I had a thought come. While God has granted me much in the way of talent and training, I have such limited ability to live out loud. I can honestly say I am depressed by the thought and I don't get depressed easy.

So I'm looking to go back next year and (as in previous years) stronger for the struggle. I intend to get baptized and I intend to seek Gods healing hand through the prayers of His people, even to take part in the tent next year. I've already started this process, but please if you are reading this put my name out among your friends. I ask for your prayers to be bold and courageous with this grace given life I have. Such attributes are not common to me, an introvert at heart. In this (and some other areas) progress has been made, but I would ask for true healing if He will allow it.